1 00:00:10,580 --> 00:00:09,290 on this episode of skeptical I want to 2 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:10,590 read folks so they don't think I'm 3 00:00:15,829 --> 00:00:13,590 sandbagging you the question I wrote you 4 00:00:17,599 --> 00:00:15,839 I said are your students rioting against 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:17,609 the university's secular humanists 6 00:00:22,340 --> 00:00:19,770 demanding recognition of soul and spirit 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:22,350 are they protesting against atheistic 8 00:00:25,790 --> 00:00:24,570 feminism I said I'm kidding of course 9 00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:25,800 but you get the point 10 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:27,689 the central issue relative the 11 00:00:32,330 --> 00:00:29,550 intersection of consciousness and 12 00:00:34,729 --> 00:00:32,340 politics seems to have been swallowed in 13 00:00:37,819 --> 00:00:34,739 shallow thinking ocean of not my 14 00:00:42,889 --> 00:00:37,829 president identity politics I mean the 15 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:42,899 issue here is that we are more we are 16 00:00:48,770 --> 00:00:45,600 more than biological robots in a 17 00:00:52,459 --> 00:00:48,780 meaningless universe we have a spirit we 18 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:52,469 have a soul so why not go join arms with 19 00:00:57,470 --> 00:00:54,510 your local seminary students and go 20 00:01:00,860 --> 00:00:57,480 march on Berkeley that's really the the 21 00:01:04,759 --> 00:01:00,870 battle here and it just it mystifies me 22 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:04,769 how folks in your camp of which I am 23 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:08,310 part of do not see the divide the real 24 00:01:15,230 --> 00:01:12,060 divide is between atheistic materialism 25 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:15,240 which is the underlying dogma of science 26 00:01:21,679 --> 00:01:19,290 and kind of creative spiritualism which 27 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:21,689 is I think what your whole program is 28 00:01:25,580 --> 00:01:23,490 really all about haven't we miss 29 00:01:29,859 --> 00:01:25,590 identified the the real cause of the 30 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:29,869 friction here yeah I'm not sure uh I 31 00:01:38,749 --> 00:01:36,810 mean I guess Alex you know I'm not as I 32 00:01:40,069 --> 00:01:38,759 mean people are going to be where 33 00:01:43,310 --> 00:01:40,079 they're going to be in their own 34 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:43,320 conscious evolution if people are you 35 00:01:48,380 --> 00:01:45,770 know in an atheistic world 36 00:01:51,230 --> 00:01:48,390 my sense is they're probably suffering 37 00:01:54,350 --> 00:01:51,240 from that even you know even though they 38 00:01:56,149 --> 00:01:54,360 may be gloating from that so you know I 39 00:01:58,550 --> 00:01:56,159 mean I guess my question to you is why 40 00:02:02,500 --> 00:01:58,560 are you bothered by those people stay 41 00:02:02,510 --> 00:02:09,880 [Music] 42 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:12,080 welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore 43 00:02:16,430 --> 00:02:13,769 controversial science and spirituality 44 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:16,440 with leading researchers thinkers and 45 00:02:19,699 --> 00:02:17,610 their critics 46 00:02:22,729 --> 00:02:19,709 I'm your host Alex Karras and this week 47 00:02:25,699 --> 00:02:22,739 a listener suggested guest and I think a 48 00:02:28,190 --> 00:02:25,709 pretty good one dr. Karen janky heads up 49 00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:28,200 a program on consciousness at JFK 50 00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:30,870 University so there's really two topics 51 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:33,360 I sought to explore in my interview with 52 00:02:37,069 --> 00:02:35,610 Karen and she did a fabulous job I 53 00:02:38,569 --> 00:02:37,079 really appreciate her coming on and 54 00:02:40,190 --> 00:02:38,579 talking about them because they were 55 00:02:41,750 --> 00:02:40,200 both kind of pushing a little bit but I 56 00:02:44,089 --> 00:02:41,760 think she does a great job of putting 57 00:02:45,970 --> 00:02:44,099 forth a new and different perspective 58 00:02:49,339 --> 00:02:45,980 and those two issues are one 59 00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:49,349 consciousness from a transpersonal 60 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:52,500 philosophy spiritual perspective that is 61 00:02:57,349 --> 00:02:54,530 kind of doing an end run on the 62 00:02:59,809 --> 00:02:57,359 scientific neuroscience debate about 63 00:03:02,569 --> 00:02:59,819 consciousness can we take that path 64 00:03:04,479 --> 00:03:02,579 where does that path lead what are the 65 00:03:06,949 --> 00:03:04,489 issues surrounding that kind of 66 00:03:08,479 --> 00:03:06,959 expansion of consciousness without ever 67 00:03:11,420 --> 00:03:08,489 really defining what consciousness is 68 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:11,430 kind of thing so that's number one and 69 00:03:16,220 --> 00:03:14,310 the second issue is since JFK University 70 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:16,230 here University is very outwardly 71 00:03:21,460 --> 00:03:18,810 socially oriented what is the 72 00:03:25,039 --> 00:03:21,470 intersection between consciousness and 73 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:25,049 politics and in particular this expanded 74 00:03:29,780 --> 00:03:27,450 view of consciousness and politics how 75 00:03:31,819 --> 00:03:29,790 does that play out how do we how might 76 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:31,829 our understanding of this idea of 77 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:36,480 consciousness inform right action so 78 00:03:40,909 --> 00:03:38,250 those are the two topics that I wanted 79 00:03:43,670 --> 00:03:40,919 to talk about and I did with our guest 80 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:43,680 this week dr. Karen janky I hope you 81 00:03:49,129 --> 00:03:46,290 enjoy the interview today we welcome 82 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:49,139 Karen janky - skeptic Oh dr. janky is 83 00:03:54,170 --> 00:03:51,030 chair of the consciousness and 84 00:03:56,869 --> 00:03:54,180 transformative Studies program at John F 85 00:03:59,629 --> 00:03:56,879 Kennedy University in the San Francisco 86 00:04:02,659 --> 00:03:59,639 Bay Area a program whose mission is to 87 00:04:05,809 --> 00:04:02,669 explore and expand consciousness and 88 00:04:08,259 --> 00:04:05,819 human potential and to foster conscious 89 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:08,269 leadership in service of personnel 90 00:04:14,750 --> 00:04:11,090 organizational cultural and ecological 91 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:14,760 change so Karen with that introduction 92 00:04:20,089 --> 00:04:17,849 and very great interesting mission 93 00:04:22,310 --> 00:04:20,099 statement welcome to skeptic oh thanks 94 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:22,320 for joining me thank you for inviting me 95 00:04:26,750 --> 00:04:24,330 let's pleasure you were recommended to 96 00:04:29,210 --> 00:04:26,760 me by a listener and I thought it would 97 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:29,220 be a good fit since the main focus of 98 00:04:33,590 --> 00:04:31,770 our show is consciousness science but 99 00:04:35,450 --> 00:04:33,600 then you know I started digging into 100 00:04:36,710 --> 00:04:35,460 more of what you're doing up there at 101 00:04:40,820 --> 00:04:36,720 the very interesting 102 00:04:42,380 --> 00:04:40,830 JFK University and I was we kind of 103 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:42,390 exchanged some emails back and I said 104 00:04:46,010 --> 00:04:43,890 hey what are you talking about with this 105 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:46,020 consciousness thing you seem to be 106 00:04:50,060 --> 00:04:48,090 coming at it from a different direction 107 00:04:51,740 --> 00:04:50,070 so as we were just chatting about you're 108 00:04:54,650 --> 00:04:51,750 not poked at you a little bit in the in 109 00:04:57,740 --> 00:04:54,660 my emails and you in some very 110 00:05:00,830 --> 00:04:57,750 appropriate interesting intelligent ways 111 00:05:03,710 --> 00:05:00,840 kind of poked back at me so I think 112 00:05:06,470 --> 00:05:03,720 we're going to have a good chat and I 113 00:05:07,850 --> 00:05:06,480 want to talk about JFK University I want 114 00:05:10,250 --> 00:05:07,860 to talk with a program the very 115 00:05:15,740 --> 00:05:10,260 interesting program you have going on 116 00:05:17,870 --> 00:05:15,750 there but let me start with this Karen 117 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:17,880 what is consciousness 118 00:05:22,610 --> 00:05:20,850 what do you understand and what is your 119 00:05:25,940 --> 00:05:22,620 working definition of what consciousness 120 00:05:28,430 --> 00:05:25,950 is well I'm really glad you asked that 121 00:05:30,980 --> 00:05:28,440 question because that term gets thrown 122 00:05:35,390 --> 00:05:30,990 around in so many different ways in 123 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:35,400 everyday language and I think you know 124 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:37,250 if you start mixing up different 125 00:05:41,060 --> 00:05:39,210 understandings of consciousness then of 126 00:05:46,910 --> 00:05:41,070 course you have a mixed up conversation 127 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:46,920 from the start so I mean I think some 128 00:05:54,410 --> 00:05:51,930 people speak about consciousness as mind 129 00:05:58,340 --> 00:05:54,420 in general referring to that the mental 130 00:06:00,320 --> 00:05:58,350 process involving all organizations and 131 00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:00,330 some people speak about it as the 132 00:06:04,870 --> 00:06:02,070 reflective consciousness that human 133 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:04,880 beings have and which is you know 134 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:06,810 generally considered to be a higher 135 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:08,490 order of consciousness so I think we 136 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:11,610 have to be really clear about which 137 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:13,650 definition we're using or which aspect 138 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:15,930 of consciousness we're looking at I mean 139 00:06:21,530 --> 00:06:17,370 in an everyday sense you could say 140 00:06:23,750 --> 00:06:21,540 consciousness refers to sentience or 141 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:23,760 awareness those are and sometimes it's 142 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:28,110 you know referred to as mind as opposed 143 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:33,330 to matter the to me one of the 144 00:06:40,940 --> 00:06:36,000 clarifying ways to think about 145 00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:40,950 justice is to draw on living systems 146 00:06:48,860 --> 00:06:43,830 theory and basically living systems 147 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:48,870 theory says that mind is present at all 148 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:52,110 levels of matter in other words whatever 149 00:06:57,170 --> 00:06:54,210 of what every system in the universe 150 00:07:00,170 --> 00:06:57,180 does from the particle to the universe 151 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:00,180 as a whole is process information and 152 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:03,570 process and exchange energy and so that 153 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:06,690 information processing function that's 154 00:07:12,290 --> 00:07:09,110 present in you know even in particles 155 00:07:14,990 --> 00:07:12,300 you could think of as the beginning of a 156 00:07:16,820 --> 00:07:15,000 kind of consciousness you know I mean 157 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:16,830 you could be you could use information 158 00:07:20,990 --> 00:07:18,570 processing as a definition of 159 00:07:23,330 --> 00:07:21,000 consciousness that we're taking in 160 00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:23,340 information from the world processing it 161 00:07:28,390 --> 00:07:26,310 and that is guiding our interactions 162 00:07:32,270 --> 00:07:28,400 with the world so if you speak about 163 00:07:34,340 --> 00:07:32,280 consciousness in that way as kind of a 164 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:34,350 you know and then I mean I think we have 165 00:07:38,870 --> 00:07:35,970 to allow that there's a spectrum of 166 00:07:41,450 --> 00:07:38,880 consciousness in Moore's at more 167 00:07:44,150 --> 00:07:41,460 sophisticated levels you know presumably 168 00:07:47,420 --> 00:07:44,160 going up to human beings at least those 169 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:47,430 we credit ourselves having the highest 170 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:49,410 forms of consciousness of which we can 171 00:07:55,159 --> 00:07:53,130 question some of that to from actually 172 00:07:59,450 --> 00:07:55,169 from a systems perspective of we're the 173 00:08:01,640 --> 00:07:59,460 only species on the planet that has ever 174 00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:01,650 you know systematically destroyed its 175 00:08:06,710 --> 00:08:04,020 own environment okay but hold on before 176 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:06,720 we get off into kind of too far into the 177 00:08:12,469 --> 00:08:09,930 social issues and any even ecologic 'el 178 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:12,479 issues which I kind of understand where 179 00:08:15,710 --> 00:08:14,010 you're going there but you can see with 180 00:08:17,990 --> 00:08:15,720 the line gets a little bit fuzzy I mean 181 00:08:19,310 --> 00:08:18,000 let's bring it back into focus it with 182 00:08:22,210 --> 00:08:19,320 some of the questions that you were just 183 00:08:25,010 --> 00:08:22,220 asking there is consciousness and 184 00:08:27,050 --> 00:08:25,020 epiphenomena of the brain and this is 185 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:27,060 something we're just chatting about a 186 00:08:32,750 --> 00:08:30,450 second ago because I was saying you know 187 00:08:35,420 --> 00:08:32,760 Karen it kind of seems like you're doing 188 00:08:38,270 --> 00:08:35,430 an end run on neuroscience I mean if we 189 00:08:40,839 --> 00:08:38,280 go over and ask a neuroscientist like I 190 00:08:44,150 --> 00:08:40,849 have many times on this show is 191 00:08:46,670 --> 00:08:44,160 consciousness created by the brain they 192 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:46,680 emphatically say yes 193 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:49,010 consciousness is a 194 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:51,290 of the brain when the brain ceases to 195 00:08:58,240 --> 00:08:54,110 human consciousness when the human brain 196 00:09:01,180 --> 00:08:58,250 ceases to function consciousness is no 197 00:09:03,700 --> 00:09:01,190 longer there what is your take on that 198 00:09:06,310 --> 00:09:03,710 well I mean I definitely think that 199 00:09:08,620 --> 00:09:06,320 there is an association of consciousness 200 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:08,630 with the brain at least human form of 201 00:09:15,010 --> 00:09:11,810 consciousness I mean again I I want to 202 00:09:19,930 --> 00:09:15,020 open up the door that that consciousness 203 00:09:22,330 --> 00:09:19,940 as information processing as processing 204 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:22,340 and organizing life exists at all levels 205 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:27,160 of all systems not just human systems 206 00:09:32,350 --> 00:09:29,630 but then when you speak it when you want 207 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:32,360 to speak about self-reflective 208 00:09:36,340 --> 00:09:33,770 consciousness the kind of consciousness 209 00:09:39,550 --> 00:09:36,350 that seemingly human beings alone 210 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:39,560 possess ie a consciousness that can 211 00:09:44,650 --> 00:09:41,510 reflect on itself that can witness 212 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:44,660 itself can observe itself can I just 213 00:09:49,750 --> 00:09:46,370 interject here with the definition so 214 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:49,760 let's say working definition whether we 215 00:09:55,780 --> 00:09:51,440 agree with it or not one is that 216 00:10:00,990 --> 00:09:55,790 consciousness is us being aware or any 217 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:01,000 being being aware that they are aware so 218 00:10:06,190 --> 00:10:04,250 that's self reflective there and and I 219 00:10:07,870 --> 00:10:06,200 don't know that we need to limit that I 220 00:10:11,230 --> 00:10:07,880 mean it's a big open question as you 221 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:11,240 alluded to is my cat conscious at some 222 00:10:17,830 --> 00:10:13,910 level is my cat somewhat in some way 223 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:17,840 conscious that it is a sentient being 224 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:19,130 and they do all these they've done all 225 00:10:22,420 --> 00:10:20,450 these experiments right a lot of you've 226 00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:22,430 seen about with the mirror you know when 227 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:23,990 they put them ape in front of the mirror 228 00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:26,650 and does the ape realize that the 229 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:29,360 reflection is not them and you know 230 00:10:33,070 --> 00:10:31,010 there's all this evidence yeah they do 231 00:10:36,310 --> 00:10:33,080 and these are conscious beings and all 232 00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:36,320 that stuff is on the table but another 233 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:39,710 way of kind of asking this is what is 234 00:10:45,790 --> 00:10:42,110 necessary and sufficient for 235 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:45,800 consciousness okay so it sounds like 236 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:47,330 you're meaning self reflective 237 00:10:52,270 --> 00:10:50,420 consciousness well I think that that 238 00:10:53,620 --> 00:10:52,280 when you you talk about in and we'll 239 00:10:56,350 --> 00:10:53,630 talk about your program in a minute but 240 00:11:00,730 --> 00:10:56,360 you talk about you know the parallels 241 00:11:02,510 --> 00:11:00,740 with philosophy psychology and religion 242 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:02,520 and spirituality when those 243 00:11:05,930 --> 00:11:03,450 people are talking about consciousness 244 00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:05,940 what those people I mean those 245 00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:07,920 disciplines that's what they're talking 246 00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:09,600 about for the most part is this self 247 00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:11,430 reflective consciousness this being 248 00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:14,910 aware that we are our you know we are 249 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:18,180 here there is something in us there is a 250 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:20,520 voice inside the machine that we can 251 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:27,690 hear right so I mean I think yeah I mean 252 00:11:32,150 --> 00:11:29,910 that is probably an attribute of human 253 00:11:37,490 --> 00:11:32,160 beings it's see it does and it does seem 254 00:11:40,940 --> 00:11:37,500 that you know a complex nervous system 255 00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:40,950 and brain is part of what facilitates 256 00:11:45,260 --> 00:11:43,260 that higher-order consciousness the 257 00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:45,270 living systems theorists would say that 258 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:48,060 consciousness is an emergent property of 259 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:50,880 the brain and if you understand what 260 00:11:56,210 --> 00:11:52,830 they mean by emergent property I mean 261 00:12:00,080 --> 00:11:56,220 it's like water is an emergent property 262 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:00,090 the properties of water emerge from the 263 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:02,610 union of hydrogen and oxygen 264 00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:06,810 neither hydrogen or oxygen have the same 265 00:12:12,050 --> 00:12:09,360 properties that water has and so you get 266 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:12,060 this you know in Systems Theory which 267 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:15,570 I'll defend here I mean it is the I 268 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:18,330 would say it's replacing physics as the 269 00:12:24,460 --> 00:12:20,310 mother of all Sciences because it's able 270 00:12:28,460 --> 00:12:24,470 to integrate across a disciplines across 271 00:12:31,690 --> 00:12:28,470 biology across neuroscience fit the 272 00:12:34,220 --> 00:12:31,700 physics chemistry it has a wider 273 00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:34,230 explanatory power than any of the 274 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:36,030 specific disciplines that we've all 275 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:38,970 grown up with and so in living systems 276 00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:41,370 theory you know there comes a point 277 00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:44,940 where you have this this leap it's like 278 00:12:52,190 --> 00:12:48,540 a quantum leap to a new a new emergent 279 00:12:56,450 --> 00:12:52,200 property arises from a certain level of 280 00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,460 complexity and yeah I mean I we kind of 281 00:13:01,130 --> 00:12:58,320 explored that I don't know I got to kind 282 00:13:03,290 --> 00:13:01,140 of call BS on that a little bit I mean I 283 00:13:06,710 --> 00:13:03,300 think the way that the emergent property 284 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:06,720 principle works more in our natural 285 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:09,210 world is like my friend Bernardo Kastrup 286 00:13:15,550 --> 00:13:11,610 says is that a whirlpool is an emerging 287 00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:15,560 property of water but there really is no 288 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:18,140 old pool per se when you get down and we 289 00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:20,510 can model it and we can show how it how 290 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:22,670 it forms but at the end of the day 291 00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:25,370 there's nothing there's nothing there it 292 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:27,710 is just water I mean the chemical 293 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:30,529 transformation between water and the and 294 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:32,690 the molecules I think is different but 295 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:34,910 the problem with the emergent property 296 00:13:39,550 --> 00:13:37,010 of the brain thing is I think we're just 297 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:39,560 kind of on a backslide from where we 298 00:13:45,340 --> 00:13:43,130 were 30 or 40 years ago which was that 299 00:13:46,540 --> 00:13:45,350 consciousness is an illusion there is no 300 00:13:48,910 --> 00:13:46,550 real consciousness 301 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:48,920 it's just our illusion that we are 302 00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:51,710 conscious famously proposed by 303 00:13:54,820 --> 00:13:53,839 philosopher Daniel Dennett but what I'd 304 00:13:56,650 --> 00:13:54,830 say you know the problem with the 305 00:13:59,470 --> 00:13:56,660 emergent property the brain thing is 306 00:14:02,500 --> 00:13:59,480 just look at the near-death experience 307 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:02,510 science and all the evidence the 308 00:14:07,540 --> 00:14:04,520 consciousness in some way we don't 309 00:14:11,019 --> 00:14:07,550 understand survives bodily death so if 310 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:11,029 consciousness survives bodily death then 311 00:14:16,329 --> 00:14:13,370 the emergent property of the brain thing 312 00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:16,339 is kind of out the window have you this 313 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:18,710 maybe a little bit far outside of your 314 00:14:22,780 --> 00:14:20,810 field but I guess that's my point and 315 00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:22,790 can kind of come to you is I don't think 316 00:14:27,340 --> 00:14:24,920 it is I think until we kind of rustle 317 00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:27,350 these things to the ground we don't 318 00:14:38,070 --> 00:14:30,820 really know where we're where we stand 319 00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:41,920 you know I'm certainly familiar with 320 00:14:47,079 --> 00:14:44,480 that literature and have had 321 00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:47,089 transcendent experiences not well I 322 00:14:51,850 --> 00:14:48,860 guess not near-death experience is not 323 00:14:54,190 --> 00:14:51,860 associated with with an experience of 324 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:54,200 death I mean I there you know there is a 325 00:15:01,510 --> 00:14:57,050 mystery there about how much 326 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:01,520 consciousness transcends uh you know 327 00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:05,450 bodily processes maybe let's get off of 328 00:15:09,610 --> 00:15:07,700 this track for a second and talk a 329 00:15:12,340 --> 00:15:09,620 little bit more about you and your 330 00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:12,350 background because I think what you just 331 00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:15,110 alluded to in terms of spiritually 332 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:18,230 transformative experiences fit very well 333 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:22,730 into what we might consider in terms of 334 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:25,130 near-death experience science so let me 335 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:27,050 back all the way back up because you 336 00:15:31,380 --> 00:15:28,870 have a really interesting background 337 00:15:33,329 --> 00:15:31,390 seminary student at Princeton who then 338 00:15:35,190 --> 00:15:33,339 kind of goes through somewhat of a 339 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:35,200 transformation of your own so please 340 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:38,650 tell us that story okay that's it that's 341 00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:41,200 a good place to begin because I think it 342 00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:43,960 really grounds where I've gone with this 343 00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:46,990 field of study is very much comes out of 344 00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:50,230 my own life experiences and I guess this 345 00:15:54,740 --> 00:15:52,720 is part of my problem with trying to 346 00:15:57,660 --> 00:15:54,750 discuss consciousness in abstract terms 347 00:16:00,630 --> 00:15:57,670 that are devoid of the biography of the 348 00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:00,640 of the discussant I think that's that's 349 00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:02,230 that's probably that's where you get 350 00:16:08,850 --> 00:16:06,760 into some problematic territory so you 351 00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:08,860 alluded to being in my experience in 352 00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:11,230 seminary I was a spiritual seeker from 353 00:16:19,290 --> 00:16:16,560 early on and in my last year of seminary 354 00:16:21,329 --> 00:16:19,300 and a couple years after I finished 355 00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:21,339 seminary I worked as a prison chaplain 356 00:16:27,570 --> 00:16:24,940 and I was working actually it was in the 357 00:16:30,079 --> 00:16:27,580 late 80s I was working with people with 358 00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:30,089 AIDS I was assigned to an AIDS unit and 359 00:16:37,620 --> 00:16:32,440 this was in the state of New Jersey 360 00:16:39,180 --> 00:16:37,630 there was no cure for AIDS and in 361 00:16:42,269 --> 00:16:39,190 addition to that I was going to visit 362 00:16:43,949 --> 00:16:42,279 the soul woman on death row in the state 363 00:16:46,769 --> 00:16:43,959 of New Jersey at the request of the 364 00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:46,779 administrator of the prison so I was you 365 00:16:52,019 --> 00:16:48,550 know about 30 years old and I was just 366 00:16:54,630 --> 00:16:52,029 completely immersed in death death of 367 00:16:58,079 --> 00:16:54,640 people my age you know the kind of 368 00:17:00,300 --> 00:16:58,089 hovering death of death row and the all 369 00:17:03,510 --> 00:17:00,310 of those experiences and I found that I 370 00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:03,520 did not have the inner resources to cope 371 00:17:10,939 --> 00:17:08,350 with it and so I started in therapy I 372 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:10,949 went to see a Jungian analyst and 373 00:17:18,990 --> 00:17:15,730 young'uns are so famous for asking - 374 00:17:21,059 --> 00:17:19,000 asking about your dreams and I had not 375 00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:21,069 really paid attention to my dream life 376 00:17:27,210 --> 00:17:24,880 up until that time and but I started 377 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:27,220 tracking my dreams and remembering them 378 00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:30,210 and I would bring you know the biggest 379 00:17:38,610 --> 00:17:34,950 most jarring puzzling upsetting 380 00:17:41,250 --> 00:17:38,620 challenging dreams that I had to my 381 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:41,260 therapist and I worked in this way for 382 00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:42,640 about five and a half years 383 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:46,440 really mining my own consciousness and 384 00:17:53,370 --> 00:17:49,600 being willing to engage with whatever 385 00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:53,380 came up from the dream dream world which 386 00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:55,030 of course the ego has very little 387 00:17:58,770 --> 00:17:57,130 control over all you all you have to do 388 00:18:01,650 --> 00:17:58,780 is try to dictate what dream you're 389 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:01,660 going to happen you can see how how 390 00:18:09,050 --> 00:18:04,450 impossible that is but I realized early 391 00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:09,060 on that the dreams had a much more 392 00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:13,600 complex and nuanced and emotionally 393 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:16,750 Laden story about my life then I was 394 00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:18,370 telling myself out of kind of my 395 00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:21,780 suburban a you know middle-class 396 00:18:29,790 --> 00:18:26,140 storyline and that actually is what then 397 00:18:32,940 --> 00:18:29,800 got me to graduate school and in 398 00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:32,950 graduate school I another occurrence 399 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:36,460 happened around the same time I started 400 00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:39,370 having migraine headaches and they were 401 00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:42,760 completely debilitating they were 402 00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:45,700 chronic you know so it wasn't something 403 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:49,660 I could ignore and I my thought was you 404 00:18:56,130 --> 00:18:52,930 know wow my my body is doing something 405 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:56,140 really dramatic here what is this about 406 00:19:00,330 --> 00:18:58,210 why am I suddenly you know basically 407 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:00,340 being hammered over the head with a 408 00:19:07,710 --> 00:19:05,710 migraine and uh I in graduate school I 409 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:07,720 was very fortunate to study with 410 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:08,740 stanislav grof 411 00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:11,170 who has done quite a bit of work around 412 00:19:14,910 --> 00:19:13,990 birth trauma he's a psychiatrist so he 413 00:19:16,260 --> 00:19:14,920 understood 414 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:16,270 he'd been to medical school and 415 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:20,170 understood the biological phases of 416 00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:23,890 birth and did some research tying the 417 00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:25,660 biological phases of birth to the 418 00:19:33,420 --> 00:19:28,660 psychological phases of birth and in his 419 00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:33,430 work he says it that migraine headaches 420 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:38,470 are one symptom of birth trauma so I got 421 00:19:44,340 --> 00:19:40,270 interested in that question is that 422 00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:44,350 what's going on here and started doing 423 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:46,780 some research started trying to work 424 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:48,910 with the migraines consciously I did not 425 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:50,650 take drugs for them except I mean 426 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:52,240 occasionally I would take Advil if it 427 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:54,670 was just you know I had to function in 428 00:19:58,580 --> 00:19:55,710 some way 429 00:20:02,060 --> 00:19:58,590 but I really tried to explore what was 430 00:20:04,399 --> 00:20:02,070 going on in my in my own body and my own 431 00:20:07,399 --> 00:20:04,409 consciousness with these with these 432 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:07,409 migraine headaches and eventually I was 433 00:20:15,169 --> 00:20:12,110 able to track them back to the beginning 434 00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:15,179 where I would mean basically once a 435 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:16,860 migraine gets going it's very hard to 436 00:20:22,159 --> 00:20:20,130 reverse it so I had to learn what were 437 00:20:25,159 --> 00:20:22,169 the kind of precursor signs to a 438 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:25,169 migraine and eventually I was able to 439 00:20:29,269 --> 00:20:27,330 heal myself of the migraines by by 440 00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:29,279 tracking them by really just being very 441 00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:32,220 curious about this you know a kind of 442 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:37,700 violent process in my in my head and so 443 00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:41,970 that that experience and then piecing 444 00:20:48,289 --> 00:20:45,480 together my birth trauma you know I can 445 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:48,299 really say that the the jolt of my birth 446 00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:51,750 trauma is what put me on a consciousness 447 00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:53,520 path all the way really before I even 448 00:20:59,630 --> 00:20:55,919 got out of the womb I what my 449 00:21:01,519 --> 00:20:59,640 consciousness was disturbed and of 450 00:21:04,130 --> 00:21:01,529 course you know I coped with it as a 451 00:21:05,419 --> 00:21:04,140 child but then as a as I think as soon 452 00:21:07,730 --> 00:21:05,429 as I became an adult 453 00:21:12,289 --> 00:21:07,740 it was screaming for my attention this 454 00:21:15,049 --> 00:21:12,299 history so I'm very aware that you know 455 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:15,059 of the role of trauma and life story in 456 00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:17,370 shaping our consciousness and what 457 00:21:21,289 --> 00:21:19,529 happened for me basically was that my 458 00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:21,299 own consciousness was a problem to me 459 00:21:27,769 --> 00:21:23,700 you know it was creating incredible 460 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:27,779 suffering and so my exploration of 461 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:29,970 consciousness is less about the sort of 462 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:33,450 abstract these abstract questions and 463 00:21:38,539 --> 00:21:36,570 more about the immediacy of my own 464 00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:38,549 experience and how can I live in this 465 00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:41,460 body with this you know traumatized head 466 00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:44,700 and in my research you know back into my 467 00:21:49,789 --> 00:21:47,460 own birth story and early childhood I 468 00:21:52,130 --> 00:21:49,799 realized that I'd had like five head 469 00:21:56,539 --> 00:21:52,140 traumas by the time I was bike riding 470 00:22:00,080 --> 00:21:56,549 age so you know all that jarring of my 471 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:00,090 head required that I work with my own 472 00:22:06,860 --> 00:22:05,010 consciousness in a way to heal those you 473 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:06,870 know traumatic disturbances you might 474 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:08,230 say 475 00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:10,390 and my dreams of course were you know 476 00:22:17,549 --> 00:22:14,140 primary help in that process meditation 477 00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:17,559 has been a help in that process I guess 478 00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:19,840 those are you know it's adults also done 479 00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:23,440 some yoga over at times integrating your 480 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:27,220 mind and body practices okay 481 00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,090 so there's you know that's cool and I'm 482 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:33,520 all for that and you know you specially 483 00:22:41,130 --> 00:22:36,250 on a personal level I'm still a little 484 00:22:46,590 --> 00:22:41,140 bit struggling with how that fits within 485 00:22:48,539 --> 00:22:46,600 an academic academia scientific kind of 486 00:22:50,580 --> 00:22:48,549 basis and I know you're kind of on the 487 00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:50,590 edges there with transpersonal 488 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:52,750 psychology and all the rest of that but 489 00:22:58,230 --> 00:22:55,650 I do feel the need to kind of keep 490 00:23:01,289 --> 00:22:58,240 wrestling it down to the ground you know 491 00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:01,299 I sent you a link in the emails that we 492 00:23:05,850 --> 00:23:04,000 had to the consciousness conference at 493 00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:05,860 the University Arizona which is probably 494 00:23:11,010 --> 00:23:08,740 one of the more well-known in this very 495 00:23:14,010 --> 00:23:11,020 small kind of fringy field of 496 00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:14,020 consciousness studies and there's no 497 00:23:18,659 --> 00:23:16,540 overlap to anything you're saying 498 00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:18,669 right so those people would know Stannis 499 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:21,940 offed stanislav grof and his interesting 500 00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:23,650 work with psychedelics and then with 501 00:23:28,650 --> 00:23:26,559 dream dream work and breathing work and 502 00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:28,660 all the rest of that but for the most 503 00:23:33,210 --> 00:23:31,240 part these people in the consciousness 504 00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:33,220 studies thing no matter how fringy they 505 00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:36,640 are are trying to map it back to more of 506 00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:40,809 a model that fits into science so as I 507 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:43,270 said at the beginning can we really do 508 00:23:50,549 --> 00:23:47,049 an end run on the whole science thing I 509 00:23:52,860 --> 00:23:50,559 mean if you go talk to an academic and 510 00:23:55,919 --> 00:23:52,870 told them that the jolt of your birth 511 00:23:58,380 --> 00:23:55,929 trauma disturbed your consciousness I 512 00:24:02,850 --> 00:23:58,390 mean I don't know where they'd go with 513 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:02,860 that yeah I mean I understand people 514 00:24:07,740 --> 00:24:05,890 people explore consciousness you know 515 00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:07,750 what I would say from a disembodied 516 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:10,720 place if you explore consciousness 517 00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:14,610 simply as an abstract concept and aren't 518 00:24:18,649 --> 00:24:17,080 looking at you know the very thing we 519 00:24:21,330 --> 00:24:18,659 were talking about at the beginning the 520 00:24:22,050 --> 00:24:21,340 self-aware part of it where does one 521 00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:22,060 self away 522 00:24:27,150 --> 00:24:25,360 Ernest come into that why are those the 523 00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:27,160 questions that are that are interesting 524 00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:30,640 if my and I'm not willing to that you're 525 00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:34,480 looking for is the shift and and I would 526 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:38,020 say the program that I that I teach in 527 00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:40,930 embraces this this shift it's not that 528 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:43,900 we're not interested in in the cotton 529 00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:46,810 the in the principles principal concepts 530 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:53,080 and principles of science but how uh how 531 00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:57,490 does one's own consciousness dictate the 532 00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:00,240 very questions that are being asked and 533 00:25:08,430 --> 00:25:05,670 you know I think our program that title 534 00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:08,440 consciousness and transformative studies 535 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:11,980 the transformative part of it actually 536 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:15,010 refers to the the self work that 537 00:25:22,050 --> 00:25:17,410 students do in the program so we're 538 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:22,060 interested in what the the process of 539 00:25:27,660 --> 00:25:24,010 transformation of people's own 540 00:25:32,130 --> 00:25:27,670 consciousness and what does that look 541 00:25:35,430 --> 00:25:32,140 like what does it mean to develop one's 542 00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:35,440 own consciousness where is that question 543 00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:40,420 on the table and you know what what 544 00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:43,120 kinds of what kinds of questions emerge 545 00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:45,760 about consciousness from different 546 00:25:50,790 --> 00:25:48,400 levels of consciousness what does it 547 00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:50,800 mean to develop your own consciousness 548 00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:54,670 and I think we would say you know some 549 00:26:01,490 --> 00:25:57,760 of it is skills of self observation some 550 00:26:04,620 --> 00:26:01,500 of it has to do with integration so 551 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:04,630 integration of the fragmented parts of 552 00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:07,930 one's own consciousness what does it 553 00:26:12,660 --> 00:26:09,760 mean to discipline one's consciousness 554 00:26:14,790 --> 00:26:12,670 to have a disciplined consciousness what 555 00:26:17,030 --> 00:26:14,800 does it mean to unify one's 556 00:26:19,980 --> 00:26:17,040 consciousness so that one's not 557 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:19,990 experiencing or viewing the world from a 558 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:23,650 polarized place so we're I mean the cut 559 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:25,930 the transformative part of our program 560 00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:28,290 that's in the title of the program is 561 00:26:33,810 --> 00:26:31,120 basically asking the student that comes 562 00:26:35,890 --> 00:26:33,820 there to make their own consciousness an 563 00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:35,900 object of investigation 564 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:38,000 and I think the leading edge of 565 00:26:44,050 --> 00:26:41,410 consciousness studies is going to be to 566 00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:44,060 work with first-person experiences 567 00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:46,430 because the only consciousness we can 568 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:49,520 directly observe is our own and so our 569 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:52,250 own consciousness is really you know I 570 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:54,410 think a starting place for the 571 00:26:59,470 --> 00:26:56,090 investigation of consciousness if you 572 00:27:02,650 --> 00:26:59,480 skip over that then you end up in all of 573 00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:02,660 these you know I think dead-end alleys 574 00:27:07,620 --> 00:27:05,540 you end up you know with making 575 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:07,630 metaphysical assumptions about 576 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:10,370 consciousness that are not grounded in 577 00:27:14,980 --> 00:27:13,250 your own experience so we you know we 578 00:27:17,770 --> 00:27:14,990 take very seriously the kind of 579 00:27:20,170 --> 00:27:17,780 first-person science and you know most 580 00:27:22,150 --> 00:27:20,180 of conventional science isn't willing to 581 00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:22,160 go there and I think there's a bigger 582 00:27:27,010 --> 00:27:25,070 the speaks to a bigger problem about the 583 00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:27,020 relationship between objectivity and 584 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:31,360 subjectivity so if you pretend that 585 00:27:34,990 --> 00:27:34,370 subjectivity is not present at every 586 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:35,000 moment 587 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:37,490 ie subjectivity is consciousness the 588 00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:40,130 researchers own consciousness is present 589 00:27:47,770 --> 00:27:44,230 at all times and to not account for that 590 00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:47,780 in you know in an investigation is is a 591 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:49,910 distortion well I agree with you 592 00:27:55,230 --> 00:27:52,010 completely but I mean to me that kind of 593 00:27:57,850 --> 00:27:55,240 gets back to the original question so if 594 00:28:00,190 --> 00:27:57,860 we're operating under a paradigm that 595 00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:00,200 says consciousness is an illusion 596 00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:02,960 so therefore experience is fundamentally 597 00:28:07,210 --> 00:28:05,120 an illusion but I never think we make 598 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:07,220 that explicit so I see where you're 599 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:09,530 coming from and I totally get that we 600 00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:11,330 have to reintroduce first-person 601 00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:14,000 experience but it what about some kind 602 00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:16,780 of balance you know I just did interview 603 00:28:23,310 --> 00:28:20,030 not too long ago dr. Jeffrey long who I 604 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:23,320 always come my go-to guy he's a 605 00:28:27,580 --> 00:28:26,090 oncologist who got really interested in 606 00:28:29,350 --> 00:28:27,590 studying near-death experience and has 607 00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:29,360 collected the largest database of 608 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:32,320 near-death experiences so now he has 609 00:28:36,790 --> 00:28:34,730 first-person experiences and for the 610 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:36,800 super scientific minded I always point 611 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:39,650 out that you know if you go out and do a 612 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:43,850 medical survey on pain if you go out and 613 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:46,610 do a medical survey on depression which 614 00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:48,910 are the building blocks for all the 615 00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:51,910 farm illogical solutions we have for 616 00:28:54,990 --> 00:28:53,440 that well that's all first-person 617 00:28:56,790 --> 00:28:55,000 experience you're saying well how did 618 00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:56,800 you feel how did you feel this morning 619 00:29:00,270 --> 00:28:57,940 how did you feel after you took this 620 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:00,280 medication that's first-person 621 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:02,890 experience that is a part of science and 622 00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:04,450 we do have a way handling it but I 623 00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:07,600 digress slightly because what jeff has 624 00:29:12,690 --> 00:29:10,840 done is taken spiritually transformative 625 00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:12,700 experiences that's what these people 626 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:13,840 have when they have these near-death 627 00:29:18,410 --> 00:29:15,370 experiences there are spiritually 628 00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:18,420 transforming and then he's tried to look 629 00:29:25,650 --> 00:29:22,540 systematically at that and I think that 630 00:29:28,020 --> 00:29:25,660 rigor is important and that's I guess 631 00:29:29,670 --> 00:29:28,030 one thing that I guess I'm I'm looking 632 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:29,680 for here a little bit when we say you 633 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:31,570 know hey everyone's first-person 634 00:29:36,450 --> 00:29:35,170 experience matters well I don't know 635 00:29:39,180 --> 00:29:36,460 don't we have to be a little more 636 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:39,190 systematic than that absolutely no 637 00:29:42,690 --> 00:29:40,930 absolutely Alex you're you're totally 638 00:29:45,150 --> 00:29:42,700 right I mean we have to add some other 639 00:29:48,510 --> 00:29:45,160 things into the mix with first-person 640 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:48,520 experience one is you know what I was 641 00:29:52,530 --> 00:29:51,010 mentioning earlier what you know the 642 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:52,540 Buddhists would tell us that an 643 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:54,730 undisciplined consciousness is an 644 00:29:58,740 --> 00:29:55,810 unreliable 645 00:30:00,360 --> 00:29:58,750 you know observer of truth and this is 646 00:30:01,950 --> 00:30:00,370 where what I was saying earlier about 647 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:01,960 what does it mean to develop one's own 648 00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:04,450 consciousness to develop one's own 649 00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:08,080 powers of self observation and to end 650 00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:09,820 you know part of what we teach students 651 00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:12,100 in the program is they learn multiple 652 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:15,790 lenses you know a mote from effect 653 00:30:22,170 --> 00:30:18,850 theory and emotional intelligence to you 654 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:22,180 know psychological schemas to Buddhist 655 00:30:27,090 --> 00:30:24,970 you know meditation practices in other 656 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:27,100 words we learn many ways of observing 657 00:30:34,590 --> 00:30:29,890 ourself I have many lenses for observing 658 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:34,600 our self as well as practices so yes it 659 00:30:39,810 --> 00:30:36,910 you need a discipline consciousness to 660 00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:39,820 be able to observe you know accurately 661 00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:42,310 what what's happening in within your own 662 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:46,000 consciousness then I think you can you 663 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:49,690 can I mean the consensus validation of 664 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:51,490 science does not have to be thrown out 665 00:30:58,020 --> 00:30:54,850 the window you can have multiple reports 666 00:31:00,270 --> 00:30:58,030 of similar experiences from different 667 00:31:02,250 --> 00:31:00,280 people so you if you gathered enough 668 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:02,260 first-person data on similar 669 00:31:08,610 --> 00:31:05,050 experiences then you have something 670 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:08,620 wider to you no reference and then 671 00:31:13,530 --> 00:31:11,770 thirdly you you can bring neuro and I 672 00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:13,540 think this is where the cutting edge of 673 00:31:21,090 --> 00:31:16,870 consciousness research needs to go is 674 00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:21,100 you can bring neuroscience you know into 675 00:31:28,740 --> 00:31:24,910 the mix by trying to look at what is 676 00:31:30,690 --> 00:31:28,750 happening in the brain when certain 677 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:30,700 types of experiences are happening and 678 00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:32,470 this has been done you know I mean this 679 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:36,670 is how we I came to understand dream in 680 00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:38,890 the dream Studies world you know the 681 00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:41,620 sleep cycle in the 1950s was a 682 00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:44,380 combination of hooking people up to 683 00:31:49,170 --> 00:31:46,630 machines and seeing what was happening 684 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:49,180 in their brains and waking them up and 685 00:31:53,370 --> 00:31:51,130 getting a self-report of what was going 686 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:53,380 on in their consciousness that I think 687 00:31:58,220 --> 00:31:55,090 is a you know that's where the future is 688 00:32:02,220 --> 00:31:58,230 is headed is to as we develop more 689 00:32:06,410 --> 00:32:02,230 instrumentation to do the neuroscience 690 00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:06,420 research we can start to combine 691 00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:09,460 first-person experience from reliable 692 00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:11,140 reporters people have trained their 693 00:32:16,770 --> 00:32:14,470 consciousness with with the neuroscience 694 00:32:19,470 --> 00:32:16,780 and get you know burrow in on this 695 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:19,480 question of what is the relationship 696 00:32:24,750 --> 00:32:22,650 between the brain mechanisms and 697 00:32:26,940 --> 00:32:24,760 experience and I think that's that's 698 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:26,950 what your sense that's where you're 699 00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:29,050 really interested your interest is is 700 00:32:34,170 --> 00:32:32,080 how do we tie you know we don't want to 701 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:34,180 from my perspective I'm not willing to 702 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:37,330 throw out my own experience science 703 00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:39,850 needs to accommodate it you know a study 704 00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:42,400 of consciousness needs to accommodate a 705 00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:46,240 study of experience and and you know 706 00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:47,440 that doesn't mean we throw out the 707 00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:50,020 neuroscience piece I think those self 708 00:32:54,690 --> 00:32:52,870 reports have to be coordinated with you 709 00:32:56,220 --> 00:32:54,700 know processes to understand what's 710 00:32:58,500 --> 00:32:56,230 going on in the brain at the same time 711 00:33:02,100 --> 00:32:58,510 and then we can get closer to this kind 712 00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:02,110 of mystery place of how these two you 713 00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:04,030 know are related to each other 714 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:07,360 great stuff let's talk about the other 715 00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:09,210 topic I want to kind of bring up was 716 00:33:14,790 --> 00:33:11,950 consciousness and politics because in 717 00:33:15,270 --> 00:33:14,800 your very nicely done mission statement 718 00:33:17,930 --> 00:33:15,280 that 719 00:33:20,330 --> 00:33:17,940 read earlier you know you reference 720 00:33:23,310 --> 00:33:20,340 organizational cultural and ecological 721 00:33:27,090 --> 00:33:23,320 levels of consciousness I think that's a 722 00:33:29,910 --> 00:33:27,100 very very tricky transition to make but 723 00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:29,920 let's also understand that John F 724 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:32,950 Kennedy University as you say and I've 725 00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:35,410 come to know through researching you and 726 00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:37,870 that's kind of cooked into the DNA of 727 00:33:46,130 --> 00:33:40,540 the university to be socially conscious 728 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:46,140 and to be proactively socially active so 729 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:49,570 one let's talk about how we make that 730 00:33:56,460 --> 00:33:52,450 transition what is you know what is 731 00:33:58,800 --> 00:33:56,470 right action in that way and then I'll 732 00:34:00,200 --> 00:33:58,810 come back later and talk specifically 733 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:00,210 about some of the problems I see with 734 00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:04,090 consciousness and politics yes so I 735 00:34:09,050 --> 00:34:06,310 mentioned in one of our email exchanges 736 00:34:12,570 --> 00:34:09,060 the theory of spiral dynamics and I know 737 00:34:14,190 --> 00:34:12,580 Ken Wilber has appropriated that theory 738 00:34:16,649 --> 00:34:14,200 but it's actually not his original 739 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:16,659 theory it goes back to a guy named 740 00:34:20,850 --> 00:34:18,210 Claire Graves who was doing 741 00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:20,860 developmental research and this again is 742 00:34:25,260 --> 00:34:22,960 the question about what does it mean to 743 00:34:27,330 --> 00:34:25,270 develop our consciousness both 744 00:34:29,070 --> 00:34:27,340 individually and collectively and I 745 00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:29,080 think that's that's a question that gets 746 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:33,250 left out in some of some of these you 747 00:34:39,389 --> 00:34:38,050 know mainstream science questions what 748 00:34:43,710 --> 00:34:39,399 does it mean to develop one's own 749 00:34:46,110 --> 00:34:43,720 consciousness and then what does it mean 750 00:34:47,580 --> 00:34:46,120 for a culture to develop its or no 751 00:34:51,419 --> 00:34:47,590 organization to develop its own 752 00:34:53,940 --> 00:34:51,429 consciousness and that's where Claire 753 00:34:56,700 --> 00:34:53,950 graves went and then Don Beck carried on 754 00:34:58,830 --> 00:34:56,710 his research along with Christopher 755 00:35:02,100 --> 00:34:58,840 Cohen those are really the three main 756 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:02,110 people Ken Wilber appropriated systems 757 00:35:07,830 --> 00:35:05,890 dynamics re spiral dynamics into his own 758 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:07,840 theory he's a great you know synthesizer 759 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:10,090 and make loses some things in the 760 00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:12,250 process but but it very important 761 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:14,560 interesting Gaia please go ahead well so 762 00:35:23,850 --> 00:35:19,410 so we you know after the 2016 election 763 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:23,860 so many people are in in my circles were 764 00:35:31,150 --> 00:35:27,890 you know shocked disturbed stunned 765 00:35:33,130 --> 00:35:31,160 at what had happened and you know I 766 00:35:34,749 --> 00:35:33,140 think a lot of liberal California felt 767 00:35:37,450 --> 00:35:34,759 that way and maybe other parts of the 768 00:35:40,989 --> 00:35:37,460 country and so you know when you look 769 00:35:43,660 --> 00:35:40,999 for explanations about how did this 770 00:35:45,759 --> 00:35:43,670 election happen the way it did and what 771 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:45,769 were the you know the parts that were 772 00:35:51,099 --> 00:35:48,890 involved that allowed Donald Trump to be 773 00:35:54,009 --> 00:35:51,109 elected 774 00:35:56,589 --> 00:35:54,019 I think spiral dynamics has some power 775 00:36:00,910 --> 00:35:56,599 to illuminate a very you know confusing 776 00:36:04,989 --> 00:36:00,920 situation and basically in spiral 777 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:04,999 dynamics they different colors are used 778 00:36:11,799 --> 00:36:07,609 to code different levels of development 779 00:36:13,569 --> 00:36:11,809 and each level of development in both at 780 00:36:17,529 --> 00:36:13,579 the individual level and at the cultural 781 00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:17,539 level encompasses the prior levels of 782 00:36:24,309 --> 00:36:22,160 development so and there's an overall 783 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:24,319 movement toward accommodating greater 784 00:36:32,289 --> 00:36:26,930 complexity so in the spiral dynamics 785 00:36:35,019 --> 00:36:32,299 model you know most most conservatives 786 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:35,029 would be at bullet what they call blue 787 00:36:41,890 --> 00:36:38,210 and orange blue being and kind of an 788 00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:41,900 authoritarian and I should just back up 789 00:36:46,569 --> 00:36:43,640 and say each of these colors are 790 00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:46,579 associated with primary values and 791 00:36:55,390 --> 00:36:50,720 worldview and there are differentiations 792 00:36:57,910 --> 00:36:55,400 as you go through them so blue is a you 793 00:37:01,420 --> 00:36:57,920 know tends to be authoritarian and a 794 00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:01,430 very loyal to truth defined by social 795 00:37:08,890 --> 00:37:04,640 groupings it leads people to obey 796 00:37:11,829 --> 00:37:08,900 Authority and then you have orange which 797 00:37:14,799 --> 00:37:11,839 is entrepreneurial that's the 798 00:37:17,410 --> 00:37:14,809 entrepreneurial spirit and has a 799 00:37:19,989 --> 00:37:17,420 personal success orientation people 800 00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:19,999 calculating their personal advantage so 801 00:37:24,759 --> 00:37:22,640 most people would say the Republican 802 00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:24,769 Party is you know kind of a combination 803 00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:27,200 of blue and orange and then you have 804 00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:31,670 green which is obviously you know focus 805 00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:34,609 begin to be focused on environmental 806 00:37:40,780 --> 00:37:39,440 issues its humanistic its interested in 807 00:37:44,140 --> 00:37:40,790 personal growth and kin 808 00:37:47,710 --> 00:37:44,150 unity everyone has a voice it's very 809 00:37:51,690 --> 00:37:47,720 egalitarian and so most liberals tend to 810 00:37:54,940 --> 00:37:51,700 be at orange or green and then you have 811 00:37:57,370 --> 00:37:54,950 yellow is the first level that takes 812 00:38:00,400 --> 00:37:57,380 into account systems thinking and 813 00:38:01,990 --> 00:38:00,410 holistic thinking and this is what we 814 00:38:05,580 --> 00:38:02,000 don't see a lot of in our country so 815 00:38:07,210 --> 00:38:05,590 this tendency of the parties to polarize 816 00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:07,220 against each other 817 00:38:12,690 --> 00:38:10,580 is part of what in the model is called 818 00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:12,700 first here consciousness which is 819 00:38:18,970 --> 00:38:16,790 anytime we polarize with with the other 820 00:38:22,180 --> 00:38:18,980 we're still in first tier consciousness 821 00:38:25,630 --> 00:38:22,190 only when you make that leap to yellow 822 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:25,640 and then beyond yellow is turquoise do 823 00:38:32,020 --> 00:38:28,250 you get an ability to think systemically 824 00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:32,030 and to take into account all of the 825 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:34,310 voices yeah but Karen without getting 826 00:38:38,110 --> 00:38:36,410 into politics and kind of staying in the 827 00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:38,120 consciousness level the thing that gets 828 00:38:42,970 --> 00:38:40,790 me is there's a total mismatch these are 829 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:42,980 secular humanists these are atheists for 830 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:45,290 the most part who are cooking up these 831 00:38:49,870 --> 00:38:48,290 ideas and that's the mismatch with all 832 00:38:51,490 --> 00:38:49,880 the other stuff we're talking about I 833 00:38:54,460 --> 00:38:51,500 want to read folk so they don't think 834 00:38:56,530 --> 00:38:54,470 I'm sandbagging you the question I wrote 835 00:38:58,180 --> 00:38:56,540 you I said are your students rioting 836 00:39:00,460 --> 00:38:58,190 against the university's secular 837 00:39:02,860 --> 00:39:00,470 humanists demanding recognition of soul 838 00:39:05,590 --> 00:39:02,870 and spirit are they protesting against 839 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:05,600 atheistic feminism I said I'm kidding of 840 00:39:08,770 --> 00:39:06,890 course but you get the point 841 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:08,780 the central issue relative the 842 00:39:13,390 --> 00:39:10,610 intersection of consciousness and 843 00:39:15,820 --> 00:39:13,400 politics seems to have been swallowed in 844 00:39:18,910 --> 00:39:15,830 shallow thinking ocean of not my 845 00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:18,920 president identity politics I mean the 846 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:23,990 issue here is that we are more we are 847 00:39:29,860 --> 00:39:26,690 more than biological robots in a 848 00:39:33,550 --> 00:39:29,870 meaningless universe we have a spirit we 849 00:39:35,590 --> 00:39:33,560 have a soul so why not go join arms with 850 00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:35,600 your local seminary students and go 851 00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:39,110 march on Berkeley that's really the the 852 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:42,350 battle here and it just it mystifies me 853 00:39:50,620 --> 00:39:47,210 how folks in in your camp of which I am 854 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:50,630 part of do not see the divide the real 855 00:39:57,540 --> 00:39:54,370 divide is between atheistic material 856 00:40:01,590 --> 00:39:57,550 which is the underlying dogma of science 857 00:40:04,020 --> 00:40:01,600 and kind of creative spiritualism which 858 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:04,030 is I think what your whole program is 859 00:40:07,290 --> 00:40:05,050 really all about 860 00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:07,300 haven't we miss identified the the real 861 00:40:17,220 --> 00:40:09,910 cause of the friction here yeah I'm not 862 00:40:20,370 --> 00:40:17,230 sure uh I mean I guess Alex you know I 863 00:40:22,260 --> 00:40:20,380 am not as I mean people are going to be 864 00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:22,270 where they're going to be in their own 865 00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:25,510 conscious evolution if people are you 866 00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:27,990 know in an atheistic world 867 00:40:33,450 --> 00:40:30,550 my sense is they're probably suffering 868 00:40:36,540 --> 00:40:33,460 from that even you know even though they 869 00:40:38,340 --> 00:40:36,550 may be gloating from that so you know I 870 00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:38,350 mean I guess my question to you is why 871 00:40:42,180 --> 00:40:41,020 are you bothered by those people for the 872 00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:42,190 same reason that you know like we're 873 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:45,670 talking about and we found you know kind 874 00:40:51,150 --> 00:40:47,890 of a bond or a similar thinking in terms 875 00:40:53,340 --> 00:40:51,160 of how we how we move things forward how 876 00:40:55,140 --> 00:40:53,350 we you know we all go through our own 877 00:40:56,670 --> 00:40:55,150 transformation then we want to talk to 878 00:40:59,010 --> 00:40:56,680 other people who are at some point in 879 00:41:01,140 --> 00:40:59,020 that journey right so in talking about 880 00:41:04,340 --> 00:41:01,150 that spiritually transformative 881 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:04,350 experience journey to me the big 882 00:41:10,350 --> 00:41:07,570 stumbling block for me and for a lot of 883 00:41:14,460 --> 00:41:10,360 people was overcoming this ingrained 884 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:14,470 dogma that you are nothing that says 885 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:16,570 what science teaches us um and I four 886 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:17,050 kids 887 00:41:20,490 --> 00:41:18,490 three of them are still in high school 888 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:20,500 want them just graduated college I mean 889 00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:22,090 this is what they are indoctrinated with 890 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:24,910 throughout is that the universe is 891 00:41:29,970 --> 00:41:27,010 meaningless you are therefore 892 00:41:32,250 --> 00:41:29,980 meaningless you are a biological robot 893 00:41:33,870 --> 00:41:32,260 and now we can play all these nice 894 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:33,880 little games but none of it is really 895 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:36,490 real and we're not religious people so 896 00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:38,890 we can't really go down that route and 897 00:41:44,730 --> 00:41:42,070 that has all its own problems so where 898 00:41:47,010 --> 00:41:44,740 we left and then we turn and these are 899 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:47,020 our allies these secular humanists 900 00:41:52,770 --> 00:41:50,170 atheists I don't think so I find more 901 00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:52,780 comfort in talking to progressive 902 00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:55,510 Christians or Buddhist or people who are 903 00:42:01,710 --> 00:41:57,520 at least in the game in terms of 904 00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:01,720 thinking about what that more is mm-hmm 905 00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:04,480 I mean I you know my experience is that 906 00:42:08,270 --> 00:42:07,030 the people who adopt of a meaningless 907 00:42:10,730 --> 00:42:08,280 view of 908 00:42:13,250 --> 00:42:10,740 wife and the universe suffer for that 909 00:42:15,890 --> 00:42:13,260 that that does not come without a price 910 00:42:18,980 --> 00:42:15,900 tag again you know I'm referring it back 911 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:18,990 to their own consciousness that's a you 912 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:20,970 know from my perspective that's a very 913 00:42:26,090 --> 00:42:24,570 contracted way to live and you know but 914 00:42:28,310 --> 00:42:26,100 if people choose to live in that 915 00:42:30,410 --> 00:42:28,320 contracted you know form 916 00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:30,420 I mean I'm gonna allow them to do that 917 00:42:37,130 --> 00:42:32,400 you know and I'm going to do my own 918 00:42:40,850 --> 00:42:37,140 thing and you know my own thing happens 919 00:42:42,980 --> 00:42:40,860 to be about expansion of consciousness 920 00:42:48,650 --> 00:42:42,990 and and obviously meaning you know deep 921 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:48,660 meaning in every every facet of life so 922 00:42:56,420 --> 00:42:52,290 but you know it's a I think we can look 923 00:42:59,300 --> 00:42:56,430 at the limitations of someone adopting a 924 00:43:01,280 --> 00:42:59,310 meaningless view that kind of cynical 925 00:43:04,010 --> 00:43:01,290 view if someone wants to go through life 926 00:43:06,350 --> 00:43:04,020 that way you know I'm not going to stop 927 00:43:08,510 --> 00:43:06,360 them on but I'm not going to join them 928 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:08,520 either but you're going to offer an 929 00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:11,250 alternative so so let's talk a little 930 00:43:16,010 --> 00:43:13,110 bit more about because we haven't really 931 00:43:18,430 --> 00:43:16,020 talked about JFK University tell us 932 00:43:21,050 --> 00:43:18,440 specifically what's going on there and 933 00:43:24,620 --> 00:43:21,060 what people are going to find in this 934 00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:24,630 program it's just a master's degree 935 00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:26,730 program or do you also offer a ph.d 936 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:29,760 program and we don't we it's just a 937 00:43:33,830 --> 00:43:32,010 master's degree we have some where in 938 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:33,840 sub conversations about a potential 939 00:43:40,460 --> 00:43:38,490 future PhD you know in this area and I 940 00:43:45,140 --> 00:43:40,470 think you know one of the areas that we 941 00:43:46,910 --> 00:43:45,150 might go into is his leadership actually 942 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:46,920 you know what you find is that if 943 00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:48,690 someone cultivates their own 944 00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:50,910 consciousness integrates does the things 945 00:43:57,530 --> 00:43:54,800 I was mentioning integrates disciplines 946 00:43:59,660 --> 00:43:57,540 unifies their own consciousness their 947 00:44:02,480 --> 00:43:59,670 own consciousness then becomes a force 948 00:44:05,060 --> 00:44:02,490 for you know you might say good in the 949 00:44:09,830 --> 00:44:05,070 world for or for positive change in the 950 00:44:13,070 --> 00:44:09,840 world and this is you know part of what 951 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:13,080 the program is is interested in doing 952 00:44:17,780 --> 00:44:14,730 we're interested in turning out people 953 00:44:20,330 --> 00:44:17,790 you as you saw in our in our mission 954 00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:20,340 statement consciousness and action is a 955 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:21,790 phrase that we use 956 00:44:27,130 --> 00:44:25,250 because we want people to spend quite a 957 00:44:29,470 --> 00:44:27,140 bit of time investigating their own 958 00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:29,480 consciousness working out the problems 959 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:31,730 in their own consciousness the conflicts 960 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:34,370 the shadows the hidden parts you know 961 00:44:38,980 --> 00:44:36,170 the black holes I was talking earlier 962 00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:38,990 about my own trauma and the way trauma 963 00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:40,910 basically creates a black hole in 964 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:43,240 consciousness it creates a kind of 965 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:45,890 contracted you know contracted response 966 00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:48,530 to life and you know from my perspective 967 00:44:53,590 --> 00:44:51,440 some of these naysayer people that 968 00:44:55,660 --> 00:44:53,600 you're talking about are are caught in a 969 00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:55,670 contraction you know a contraction of 970 00:45:01,540 --> 00:44:57,920 their own consciousness that is not an 971 00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:01,550 enviable enviable place to live so and 972 00:45:07,030 --> 00:45:03,710 most of the students who are drawn to 973 00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:07,040 this program have had some kind of 974 00:45:11,830 --> 00:45:09,380 jarring you know experience to their own 975 00:45:14,050 --> 00:45:11,840 consciousness but that has what and I 976 00:45:18,130 --> 00:45:14,060 think you'll find that's what tends to 977 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:18,140 wake people up to you know even an 978 00:45:21,370 --> 00:45:19,730 investigation of the topic of 979 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:21,380 consciousness in their own consciousness 980 00:45:27,580 --> 00:45:24,290 is you know similar in a way similar to 981 00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:27,590 my story it is not always a negative 982 00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:30,110 experience we had a student a few years 983 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:33,710 ago who had a huge dream where he was 984 00:45:38,460 --> 00:45:36,410 floating above the universe this might 985 00:45:41,290 --> 00:45:38,470 be similar to a near-death experience 986 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:41,300 floating above the universe or in some 987 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:47,450 spatial extended spatial area and I got 988 00:45:52,570 --> 00:45:50,930 the communication experienced that and I 989 00:45:56,980 --> 00:45:52,580 think heard a voice that said love is 990 00:46:00,040 --> 00:45:56,990 all there is and very you know and felt 991 00:46:02,380 --> 00:46:00,050 this power of love you know coursing 992 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:02,390 through his being in in conjunction with 993 00:46:07,510 --> 00:46:05,450 this dream and so you know you can have 994 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:07,520 the traumatic experience at the negative 995 00:46:12,340 --> 00:46:09,050 end of the spectrum or you can have a 996 00:46:14,860 --> 00:46:12,350 beautiful opening that shows you some 997 00:46:16,990 --> 00:46:14,870 you know other vision of reality than 998 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:17,000 the dominant paradigm this meaningless 999 00:46:23,020 --> 00:46:21,410 paradigm that you're referencing and so 1000 00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:23,030 what does the person do with an 1001 00:46:30,250 --> 00:46:27,110 experience like that you know it's if 1002 00:46:32,530 --> 00:46:30,260 you if you attempt to go back to your 1003 00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:32,540 normal reality after you have a 1004 00:46:38,060 --> 00:46:34,680 spiritual awakening 1005 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:38,070 or revelation or an invitation whatever 1006 00:46:45,020 --> 00:46:42,450 you want to call that then you're going 1007 00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:45,030 to be in in probably pretty sorry shape 1008 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:47,730 you try to bottle that up and package it 1009 00:46:52,070 --> 00:46:50,610 back up and so what happens for people 1010 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:52,080 is that they want to take that 1011 00:46:58,430 --> 00:46:56,130 experience and in a way make it the 1012 00:47:01,220 --> 00:46:58,440 center of their life that's what these 1013 00:47:05,660 --> 00:47:01,230 near-death type experiences do they have 1014 00:47:08,330 --> 00:47:05,670 this compelling quality that don't want 1015 00:47:11,180 --> 00:47:08,340 to be put back in a box it's you're 1016 00:47:12,980 --> 00:47:11,190 shown a greater reality and the 1017 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:12,990 challenge then is to live into that 1018 00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:15,930 greater reality and and I would say to 1019 00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:18,720 bring that greater reality back out in 1020 00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:20,310 the world to make a difference in the 1021 00:47:23,660 --> 00:47:20,760 world 1022 00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:23,670 what has that revelatory experience 1023 00:47:29,450 --> 00:47:27,300 shown you that can make life on the 1024 00:47:32,690 --> 00:47:29,460 planet better for for other people and 1025 00:47:35,330 --> 00:47:32,700 other beings and so most of our students 1026 00:47:37,580 --> 00:47:35,340 have had something like this in some 1027 00:47:39,470 --> 00:47:37,590 cases it's trauma in some cases it's you 1028 00:47:44,690 --> 00:47:39,480 know sort of an Enlightenment type of 1029 00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:44,700 experience and then they they do not 1030 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:48,060 want to go back to an ordinary job and 1031 00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:50,690 back to dominant paradigm thinking and 1032 00:47:58,610 --> 00:47:55,710 so they come to this program looking to 1033 00:48:01,100 --> 00:47:58,620 integrate that experience I would say to 1034 00:48:04,250 --> 00:48:01,110 take that experience from being a 1035 00:48:06,290 --> 00:48:04,260 private experience and make it part of 1036 00:48:08,930 --> 00:48:06,300 their public identity make it part of 1037 00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:08,940 who they come to be known as in their 1038 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:11,910 profession and in the world and that's 1039 00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:14,370 that's the common trajectory of the 1040 00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:15,920 students that are drawn to this program 1041 00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:20,160 great stuff so our guests again has been 1042 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:23,430 dr. Karen janky she you can find her at 1043 00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:27,570 JFK edu great domain there great URL 1044 00:48:31,490 --> 00:48:29,760 it's been great having you on Karen and 1045 00:48:34,190 --> 00:48:31,500 I really appreciate a lot of good stuff 1046 00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:34,200 was shared here so great job thank you 1047 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:39,710 very much thank you Alex okay Karen yes 1048 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:42,810 that's good right that's all good yeah 1049 00:48:47,630 --> 00:48:45,090 are you okay with it yeah yeah yeah I 1050 00:48:48,170 --> 00:48:47,640 think was good and I I do appreciate it 1051 00:48:49,790 --> 00:48:48,180 and 1052 00:48:52,220 --> 00:48:49,800 hopefully we can get some people 1053 00:48:53,599 --> 00:48:52,230 checking out what you're doing I love 1054 00:48:56,299 --> 00:48:53,609 your summation there at the end I 1055 00:48:59,329 --> 00:48:56,309 thought that was beautiful about you 1056 00:49:01,849 --> 00:48:59,339 know I love the point about making it 1057 00:49:04,010 --> 00:49:01,859 that we want to make that the central 1058 00:49:06,650 --> 00:49:04,020 focus of our life and you're trying to 1059 00:49:08,750 --> 00:49:06,660 find people away to just one integrate 1060 00:49:11,180 --> 00:49:08,760 that internally and then express it out 1061 00:49:14,780 --> 00:49:11,190 to the world awesome stuff good 1062 00:49:17,780 --> 00:49:14,790 all right um so will you send me the 1063 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:17,790 link or what happens of course yes I'll 1064 00:49:22,819 --> 00:49:20,970 send you the link it'll be a little bit 1065 00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:22,829 backlog so it might be four weeks or so 1066 00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:25,260 okay I'll send you that link will also 1067 00:49:29,089 --> 00:49:27,510 do a YouTube on it and then you know you 1068 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:29,099 can share it anywhere you like but I'll 1069 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:30,930 just try and get it out as best I can 1070 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:33,930 okay great thank you thank you very much 1071 00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:36,930 take care okay bye bye thanks again to 1072 00:49:40,579 --> 00:49:38,790 dr. Karen Genki for joining me today on 1073 00:49:42,650 --> 00:49:40,589 skeptic oh I guess the one question I 1074 00:49:45,470 --> 00:49:42,660 tee up from this interview is from the 1075 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:45,480 opening clip have those within academia 1076 00:49:50,059 --> 00:49:47,210 particularly the transpersonal 1077 00:49:52,910 --> 00:49:50,069 psychology types have they miss 1078 00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:52,920 identified the target of their political 1079 00:49:58,400 --> 00:49:55,920 rage so I'd love to hear your thoughts 1080 00:50:00,440 --> 00:49:58,410 on that of course the place to do it is 1081 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:00,450 through the sceptical website where you 1082 00:50:05,390 --> 00:50:02,970 can jump on over the forum and leave a 1083 00:50:07,940 --> 00:50:05,400 comment there we've had a steady stream 1084 00:50:09,799 --> 00:50:07,950 of new forum members which is always fun 1085 00:50:12,349 --> 00:50:09,809 getting some new voices into the 1086 00:50:14,569 --> 00:50:12,359 conversation so if you want to become 1087 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:14,579 one of those please visit the skeptical 1088 00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:16,890 forum and join of course it's free as 1089 00:50:21,230 --> 00:50:19,200 are all the shows which you can download 1090 00:50:22,819 --> 00:50:21,240 from the website you can also connect 1091 00:50:24,289 --> 00:50:22,829 with me on various ways send me an email 1092 00:50:27,349 --> 00:50:24,299 people do that all the time I usually 1093 00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:27,359 respond often very quickly but if not 1094 00:50:33,410 --> 00:50:30,630 within a few days so please if you feel 1095 00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:33,420 inclined reach out and connect I have a 1096 00:50:37,220 --> 00:50:35,160 number of interesting shows coming up on 1097 00:50:39,380 --> 00:50:37,230 skeptical a lot of fun stuff to talk 1098 00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:39,390 about I do hope you stay with me for all 1099 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:42,089 of that until next time take care and